bowing…is there anymore to say?

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  • #79074
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Hey guys, just putting this up because I was instrumental in hijacking Fred’s FFFFF forum once conversation started just happening…so., but well ..have we discussed it all by this point?

    I think really intentionally hijacking a thread is when somebody puts up a tune they do and then you put your own up or some professional’s up to take the attention away from theirs, but I think that’s different of course than putting up something as continuations of some related discussion…really…from other music forums I get the idea that’s just not totally kosher…but, if you think about it…when you steer the subject gradually more and more distant from the original…same ultimate thing…so…gotta watch for that insidious way of veering somebody’s original thread off course…I am usually the most guilty person in doing that…I get carried away talking, but I would never purposely hijack a thread by putting something up to take attention from the original post…just to speak on my own behalf…lol…just everything reminds me of something else, and one thing leads to another…so whatever…anyway…here’s a new bowing thread.

    We probably talked it all out.  One thing…of course, different kinds of fiddling have all different kinds of bowing.  So…the only thing I have even the inklings of a scratch on the surface of is so-called, upper south Old Time…and I was thinking earlier today…BLuegrass musicians do their N. shuffles different than old time musicians do.  Anybody notice that?  Again, hard to discuss…but what I hear around here where we live, which is huge Bluegrass country…is the N. shuffle licks are all equally pronounced or emphasized I guess.  A couple of years ago when my grandson was 7 and taking beginning classical violin class (no longer taking it now), I showed him a N. Shuffle, and he played it exactly like BLuegrass players…emphasis on each note…I then told him to think of it as “DOOOWWN cho-kie, UUUUUUUP cho-kie, etc.  He still laughs about the chokies…but he did it the old timey way right away thinking of it that way.  At least in my opinion the old timey way…although, Dwight Diller says basically the same idea about clawhammer…that the old timey way almost negates the notes between the bums, in the bum diddies.  So…I ain’t alone in thinking it and I do value Dwight’s opinions very highly…and one thing to note, the equal emphasis on notes of the Bluegrass fiddlers seem to give a person that ability for lightning fast speed.  Of course, I’m seeing more old time fiddlers online appearing who play pretty doggone fast…so…who knows?  I think I’m just soliloquizing by this point…lol…so…I leave it alone and see if anybody has any more discussion or videos related to bowing…pulsing, rocking, or any of that.  It is very interesting stuff.  I’ve been fascinated with it since before I even started playing.  I wish I knew of some videos to share, but don’t know of any at the moment.

    • This topic was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by cricketcricket.
    #79076
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Ok…well here is an example of pulsed bowing I found…lol….but he’s not demonstrating it or discussing it…I meant to say bow rocking, but pulsed too.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by cricketcricket.
    #79078
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    oh…is it there?

    #79080
    FrederickFrederick
    Participant

    Cricket says: “I think really intentionally hijacking a thread is when somebody puts up a tune they do and then you put your own up or some professional’s up to take the attention away from theirs,…”

    I think I’m guilty of this without having ever though about the consequences. If I have done this to anyone please forgive me. I will take special care not to repeat this.

    Earl White has a nice way with the bow. In this particular tune he emphasizes the high “A” note with a dotted quarter; when he drops the 2nd part to the C# he plays all 1/16’s and continues this over until the “A” repeats again. There are at least three parts to this tune. The lower shuffle has some accent to it as well. (I don’t recognize any speeding of the bow, though) 🙂

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by FrederickFrederick.
    #79082
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Oh gee whiz…I’m not trying to make everybody feel self-conscious or guilty…I mean…I’ve been on guitar or banjo forums a long time ago and just always saw if somebody put up some of their music and then another person came along and purposely promoted themselves on that thread…it wasn’t something anybody enjoyed seeing…that’s all.  Sometimes you put up a video for the purposes of discussing one thing or another, not self promotion on another person’s thread I mean.  Fred, I know you would never do that.

    Yes, I love Earl White’s playing…discovered him on youtube a while back. And…I keep thinking about this idea of speeding up the bow…I’m not seeing it that way at all…I see pressure or rocking…but I think somehow a lot of people see speed.  It really reminds me of long conversations through the night we used to have with our friends…back in the olden days in the backwoods…we’d have get togethers, play a lot of music, kids would get weary and we’d lay them all on a bed to konk out and then we’d put coffee on whoever’s woodstove and talk through the night…one of our old friends was a noted artist, although remained impoverished…but his passion for art wouldn’t let him stop…we had so many discussions with him about how color is, and how color is seen or perceived…it’s really fascinating…I mean, people can get into big disagreements about what color they are seeing…you’d think it would be physical, like your eyes see the one and only color…but a lot of it depends on the person who’s doing the looking.  An artist has to be aware of how color will be perceived in his/her paintings…you can get crazy with that because of your awareness, or you can go really conservative with the idea…wondering about how we all perceive what a fiddler is doing with their bow????

    #79083
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    The little bit of art I’ve dabbled in I like to go crazy with color…lol.  I think that call that color impressionism…or something…anyway…just saying…not trying to hijack my own thread…lol.

    #79084
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Let’s face it…I’ve got a case of cabin fever and it’s only November…

    #79103
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Hey, well I put a Big Scioty on the Lion’s Den today and then just realized the thing is loaded with bow-rocking or at least bow-pulsing.

    There’s a great lesson on doing that kinda bowing here at BGD if you have a look at the Candy Girl lesson.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 4 days ago by cricketcricket.
    #79119
    FrederickFrederick
    Participant

    There’s more to say about “Pulse Bowing”. I think you may have employed it in your arrangement of Big Scioty. Not sure, but it sure sounds similar to what John, Jim and Nancy we alluding to. At least in my way of thinking. Cool as a cucumber!

    #79124
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Yeppers!  We can’t say it, but we can play it…lol.

    #79127
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Well in the other thread, Fred’s Fiddle Forum number 5 thread, I was telling how people I’d known on Fiddle Hangout had once so painstakingly analyzed and enumerated various bowing “patterns,” or shuffles…and how I waffled back and forth…throughout my own experiences as they developed on the fiddle and conversations with these fiddlers that used to be there and Dwight Diller, who I used to email but stopped at a certain point when both of our lives took crazy turns that occupied us…anyway, one of the worst patterns or shuffle if you wanna call it that for me to ever get a feel for was what they call synco-shuffle…which they enumerated as d U_d U_d u…either that whole 8 beat thing or parts of it.  The part that seemed so awkward to me was that quick downbow and then that long upbow…it just never felt right…I could do that with my bow, but it came out very artificial and contrived…pre-planned…just didn’t sound right.

    BUT…then, once I figured n. shuffle is the mother of all bowing…hahaha…I just love to say that…really I guess that amounts to whatever you can fiddle within an 8 beat cycle and usually begin downward and usually end upward…that ain’t 100 per cent necessary but works out better than ‘tother way around or just random…then you are in essence varying the n. shuffle idea, whether you actually play a n. shuffle or not.

    BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE…for a limited time…oh no…off track…lol…oh I’m so funny…no there is more, really…and what that is is that when I discovered bow rocking and could make it work, and realized it was also called pulsing (i’d heard of bow rocking but pulsing is a recent term in my book), and could really understand how to get comfortable with this…and I gotta say, soon into this exploration of really trying to get bow rocking to feel natural to me I got onto here and started messin’ around with the Candy Girl lesson on here…I never quite did get that comfortable with the tune, Candy Girl…I think I did make a youtube but it was n’t a great job…still…what I’ve found with myself is that any lesson or attempt I make I usually walk away with a lot more than one tune…I might not even get the tune, but I get something good to add to my fiddling, I feel like.

    Anyway…I highly recommend the Candy Girl lesson to anybody who wants to get comfortable with that kinda motion on the bow…it’s a little different in that tune, but basically the same idea and I think very helpful.  So…back to my discomfort with synco shuffle…I realized the imagery I had to have to ever be able to use that maneuver was to see that strangely placed up bow as a bow-rocking type thing, or pulsing type thing if you wanna call it that.  Turns out for me at least, a bow-rocking feel is the secret to employing what they call synco shuffle…  which is a cool thing to use here and there.  And, like Dwight Diller says…it probably shouldn’t be analzyed or parsed out and given a name, but whether it has a name or remains an anonymous cool thing in fiddling, the secret is to see it as a syncopated spot where you throw in a rocking of your bow…a pulse if you wanna say it that way.

    Just my thoughts…could be way off track of course, and I’m open to that.  I’m no pro and not even an amateur…just a back porch lone fiddler, finding her own path to fiddling enlightenment.

    #79128
    JBoundsJBounds
    Participant

    I was listening to it again and it has what I’m talking about.  As for Candy Girl for some reason I’ve never really gotten into that tune and don’t know why, but that doesn’t mean I can’t learn something from it.

    I think it will take me a lifetime of bowing before it really clicks and falls in place. I do just enough to get away with playing tunes, but I’m just not there yet. Or at least where I want to be with it.

     

    #79133
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    I don’t think any fiddler ever gets to where they wanna be…lol…at least I’ve never heard any of them say so.  For me…I think if a person did just fumble around a little every so often with Candy Girl, whether they learned the tune or not, they’d start getting the feel for bow rocking and pulsing…just my opinion.  For me personally, as I think I said somewhere…lol…but who knows, I mighta not said it…but i think of it as a divided beat…like instead of going up and down on the same note, go up and up again without changing your bow…not a long bow, but a divided bow, going the same direction.  This is where if you want you can also rock it and grab ahold of another string, but don’t have to do that.  Kinda like if you were going up with your bow, aiming to play a note two beats long, and somebody bumped your elbow so it got interrupted just for a split second and turned into two notes…sorta, while still going in the same direction…not having to change the bow direction.

    You can actually go either way with this, up or down, but normally these things tend to happen on the upbow, but either way, it’ll work.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by cricketcricket.
    #79138
    JBoundsJBounds
    Participant

    The tune”Farell Trion” I have been learning for the past few weeks. Which is not an easy tune has some long bowing and little short bowing in places.  It has just about everything in it that’s why it’s so challenging, but a great tune. Even has some slides.

    #79139
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    I keep forgetting about that tune.  Thanks for reminding me.  I think just learning anything new, really, gives any of us a lot more than just that one tune…just more comfort with all kinds of stuff to do with the bow or even the noting.

    #79146
    Gunnar SalyerGunnar Salyer
    Participant

    Ok I had absolutely no clue as to what any of this was or meant until I just read post #79133 and then I got it. I do this a lot, but I don’t think of it as anything special, it’s just something I do

    #79153
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    You mean bow-rocking/pulsing?  This thread is kinda bonkers because I just sorta picked up from where it went off track from Fred’s thread…I guess it makes no sense standing alone…ugh…anyway, yeah I think you mean that.  I think bow pulsing or rocking can be mysteriously confusing to people when they don’t exactly realize what’s going on if they hear it, and then anybody’s attempt to explain it seems to just make it worse.  But if you stumble upon it on your own, or if you do finally get it after the awkward attempts to explain it, it just becomes so much a part of fiddling you don’t even realize you’re doing it…then, somebody might ask, the whole set of confusing circumstances comes back again…lol.  It’s one of those things that’s not hard to do, but hard to talk about.

    #79156
    Gunnar SalyerGunnar Salyer
    Participant

    Pulsing. (Although I do rock as well) I frequently play separate notes on the same note in the same bow stroke if that makes sense? It’s basically what you described in the other post

    #79167
    FrederickFrederick
    Participant

    This shows the “pulse” very well. Especially on the “up” bow.

    #79171
    cricketcricket
    Participant

    Oh yeah that’s a great example!

    Somebody asked me to do a live video of Big Scioty, I don’t think he wanted necessarily to see bow rocking/pulsing, just see how I went through it in D in the ADAD tuning…well…I finally got the chance to make a video just playing through it and then managed to delete that video somehow, and seemingly forever, while trying to get it up to youtube.  So…I’ll have to try it again another time…I’m not crazy about myself on video anyway…lol…so…but yeah, Fred…this is a perfect example of bow pulsing.

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